Saturday, February 18, 2006

Why anti-war?...Part 2

So why is the anti-war voice so loud? First, let me throw a few of their arguments out the window.

Argument #1: War is bad. No one disagrees that war is a bad thing or that it's tragic for so many people to die because things can't be worked out in a civilized manner. I predict that if you polled America more than 90% of the country would agree with this. Unfortunately, war is sometimes necessary and there are enemies who simply don’t want to work things out…how else can we deal with those individuals? So the anti-war folks can't rest their argument with this.

Argument #2: The reasons for going to war are wrong. I feel this is a moot point. We can debate the reasons prior to the war, but why continue that debate while the war is going on? If we're at war, doesn't that mean you've lost the debate? And if we're at war, shouldn't you want America to be victorious? IF you continue arguing against the war, then the only logical conclusion is that you are arguing for our defeat? How can this be denied? Why not say 'I disagreed with Bush's reasons for war, but we're at war nonetheless and America must emerge victorious no matter the cost'? What's so hard about that? After all, the debate can resume once we ARE victorious and our troops are home safely. So if you rationalize your argument on reason #2 and continue opposing our efforts, you have clearly sided with our enemy. There simply is no other way to see it.

Argument #3: This war is unjust. This is where people say America is the bad guy. Once again, 35 million people are now free. An evil human being has been imprisoned. He can no longer threaten us or anyone else with WMDs (before you say ‘there were no WMDs’, understand that this is another post and will be refuted at a later time). He can no longer invade or persecute his neighbors. No, Saddam never attacked us…but neither did Hitler. However, if left unattended, both of them would have attacked us eventually. I challenge anyone to dispute that. The President was given authority by Congress to act accordingly. The US and UK were enforcing the terms of the cease-fire agreement signed by Saddam in the ‘90s that he failed to live up to, so the UN had no grounds for dispute. This war was both legal and just.

Argument #4: The world is a more dangerous place because of the war. A murderer who possessed and pursued WMDs while consorting with terrorists and demanding violence against the US was removed from power and replaced with a free-elected democratic government. How is this possibly more dangerous than before? Are we supposed to say ‘no war lest it make the friends of our enemies angry’?

Argument #5: We are losing. This is contradictory and makes the least sense. We are losing, so we should just go ahead and quit? Where I come from, this is called cowardice. What if Washington or Lincoln or Roosevelt took the same attitude? Their wars didn't exactly start off with good news. And who says we're losing? The press? A few senators? It surely isn't the troops or their commanders. The military has made it clear that progress is being made. We haven't lost a single conflict in this war. Just because the enemy continues fighting doesn't mean we are losing. Freedom's enemies have kept up the fight since the dawn of history. America has the most powerful military in the world and we can't be defeated...unless we CHOOSE to quit. Our enemies know that and have made this a key component of their strategy.

So why anti-war? Because war is inconvenient. Let's face it. Our society has become self-involved. We have forgotten how to serve. We are focused on ourselves...how to climb the corporate ladder, how to acquire more possessions, how to indulge our every desire. What could possibly hinder our drive for self-gratification more than our country asking us to serve and possibly die for her? We have forgotten how much freedom is hated by a select few who wish to control others. We have forgotten the price of freedom. And so, we have taken our freedom for granted. And when you take something for granted you forget how to defend against losing it. Look at 9/11. We were ALL united in the war against the Taliban, because for a brief moment the ENTIRE country saw an imminent threat to our freedom. But that insight quickly faded for half of us. It wasn't long before we were back on the corporate ladder, driving our SUV's, looking for more self-gratitification. But the threat is still there. Half of us see it and choose to fight against it, the other half choose to ignore it. Yes, the Left will fight a terrorist if he's knocking on their front door, but the Right (myself included) chooses to go into his neighborhood and kill him before he ever gets the chance, because once he's on the doorstep you never know what may happen. So as long as the threat remains distant, the Left will NOT interrupt their selfish lives to stand against it. THAT'S why they oppose this war. They want it to end now, before their number is called to serve. Just like Vietnam. It's not worth the sacrifice if the enemy isn't knocking on their door. There's simply too much to do for themselves.

Does this mean I always support war? No. I don’t support wars of conquest. I don’t support wars that yield no direct benefit for America. But, if we WERE in such a conflict, my opposition would cease until our troops were out of harm’s way, because I only risk endangering American lives by voicing opposition that the enemy could exploit. For example, I disagreed with our involvement in Bosnia. I spoke out against it before we got involved, but never spoke out against it again until it was over. Our troops had a job to do and I supported them in doing that job. After all, their lives and safety trump my personal feelings about their cause. And contrary to the opinion of the Left, opposing the war doesn’t save lives…it just encourages our enemy to keep fighting. If we learned anything from Vietnam, that should have been it. Like I said, 50,000 soldiers died in Vietnam…for what? Thanks to the anti-war folks, they died in defeat. So I supported their victory in Bosnia. I supported them while they killed and destroyed the enemy. Should we have been there? No. But we were and I’m glad our troops succeeded in their cause.

If anyone disagrees with me, I'll be glad to listen to their reasons. And just in case you're wondering...I HAVE served my country, proudly. I do so because I want my freedom to be passed down to the following generations. I don't want my children to fight the fight that my generation was tasked with. I dare say that if my grandfather's generation didn't have this attitude, then we would surely still be fighting the Nazis today.

8 comments:

Dan Trabue said...

justthinkin said:
"Only a coward can see right in letting the aggressors win."

Here again you have someone assigning negative traits to someone they don't know. Pacifists are not for "letting aggressors win" we're for standing against aggressors without endangering innocent lives.

Some of us believe in standing against aggressors unarmed and with love and truth ("overcome evil with good," in Jesus' words). You'd call that cowardice? Jesus, Gandhi, MLK? All cowards?

Or, does it take even greater courage to do what pacifists are calling for?

Of course, not all opposed to the war are pacifists. Some oppose only specific wars - wars which they think unjust. Again, no cowardice involved (one could argue that there is cowardice in not opposing war that is unjust).

Dan Trabue said...

Your points John, one by one:

1. We agree that most people think wars are bad. Where we disagree is your point:
"Unfortunately, war is sometimes necessary"

Not everyone agrees with this. Just because you've said it does not make it so and many disagree. In fact, as the last two popes have said, in this day of bombs and nukes, we must question whether war can ever be moral or justified.

2. You said:
"but why continue that debate while the war is going on?"

We continue it because we think the evidence shows this war is wrong and to not oppose a wrong war casts us on the side of the villains.

I suppose you're saying, John, that you don't think the US would ever get involved in any truly evil wars, only slightly wrong wars? Is that your point? If so, then roughly half the country disagrees with you and for us it is not a moot point and will never be.

3. Your argument sounds a bit like an Ends justify the Means argument. We're arguing that it is wrong to invade a country unprovoked when tens (hundreds?) of thousands will be killed in the process. To say, "well, it will all be better in the end," does not make it right.

4. It makes it more dangerous if it leads to the world thinking that the US is a dangerous rogue superpower (as polls suggest is the case). Once people perceive an entity as a bully and a danger, what is the natural reaction? To want to bring that bully down by any means necessary.

We're not saying we're not opposed to the Saddams of the world. We're saying there is a more just method of stopping him.

5. I don't know anyone who makes this argument. It matters not to those opposed to this war whether we're "winning" or "losing" - except in the sense that we don't think "winning" is possible in an unjust war.

I understand fully that you disagree with me. But can't you understand that we can do naught but oppose this war if we think the evidence says it is wrong?

(And when we say, "wrong," we don't mean "wrong," like, "oops, I painted the house the wrong color." We mean "wrong," as in "whoops! I intended to paint the house but instead I burned it down. I guess I shouldn't have been using a flame thrower to paint?")

Gayle said...

I will not "debate" here, as I don't like to debate. I just wanted to say I enjoyed your post, and I agree with it, and with justthinkin's comment as well. Keep up the good work! :)

Dan Trabue said...

John, I'd like to thank you for sincerely taking the time to consider some of the differences between us. It's a great thing to think about what the "other side" thinks - even if no agreement comes of it.

Having said that, I'm a little disappointed in the lack of response to my counterpoints. You are, of course, free to ignore me as you see fit - this is your blog, after all.

However, what the lack of response from you or anyone else suggests is the concern of some (often labelled as "liberals," although the label can be misleading), that those on the Right don't really want to know what the other side thinks (whether the "other side" is "terrorists" or "liberals").

It seems to many that some of those on the Right prefer just to state their opinion ("They're just cowards." "They hate the US." "They are communists." "The point is moot and shouldn't be talked about further." etc, etc, etc) and accept that opinion as fact, regardless of reality. To the degree that this is the case, it is of great concern for many of us who also truly love our nation and ideals.

John Washburn said...

Dan, I'm not ignoring anything. I didn't respond because I feel my blog post speaks for itself and there is nothing more to say. Basically, your counterpoints provided nothing new that required further comment...no disrespect. You mentioned "evidence" that this war is wrong yet did not provide any of that so-called evidence. If you had, then I would gladly have responded. If you want my response, then just re-read my blog post because I'm pretty sure I covered everything.

Dan Trabue said...

Fair enough, John. I suspected as much.

I guess the question that I have (and therefore, a lack of understanding on my part of those on the right) that remains unanswered is:

Why you would support a war that you think is wrong simply because it's our country doing the fighting? Is it because, as I asked earlier, you don't think that a war is truly evil when it's the US doing it?

Or is it that you just haven't seen any US wars that you didn't think were justified and therefore are acting based upon past wars and not truly considering the possibility that we would be involved in what you think of as an evil war?

It's just hard for me to fathom that moral people such as I know you to be would not stand against an immoral war simply because it's our country doing it. If you'd be interested in answering that question, I'd love to know the answer.

[As to the evidence that this war is wrong and illegal, it's nothing you haven't read before and not the topic of your post, so that's why I offered no evidence. You could check the link below (Ramsey Clark's Iraq war crimes outline) if you haven't seen what many people think of as evidence enough of illegality and immorality - I'm guessing you've seen it and disagree with it, though.]

http://deoxy.org/wc/wc-index.htm

John Washburn said...

From my post:
"I don’t support wars of conquest. I don’t support wars that yield no direct benefit for America. But, if we WERE in such a conflict, my opposition would cease until our troops were out of harm’s way, because I only risk endangering American lives by voicing opposition that the enemy could exploit. For example, I disagreed with our involvement in Bosnia. I spoke out against it before we got involved, but never spoke out against it again until it was over. Our troops had a job to do and I supported them in doing that job. After all, their lives and safety trump my personal feelings about their cause. And contrary to the opinion of the Left, opposing the war doesn’t save lives…it just encourages our enemy to keep fighting. If we learned anything from Vietnam, that should have been it. Like I said, 50,000 soldiers died in Vietnam…for what? Thanks to the anti-war folks, they died in defeat. So I supported their victory in Bosnia. I supported them while they killed and destroyed the enemy. Should we have been there? No. But we were and I’m glad our troops succeeded in their cause."

Dan Trabue said...

I know what you said, we just profoundly disagree, I suppose.

I'm guessing you're saying then, that if President Bush decided to do something crazy like invade Mexico (to make it part of the US to end the border problems thusly), you'd oppose the idea, but once the war began, you'd support it.

I'm saying that I find such a notion appalling - ghastly! And I just can't understand how anyone could stand for such a thing.

sigh...'tis a sad thing, this rift between brothers and fellow citizens.