I prefer Benjamin Franklin's "Join or Die" flag. We must stay united against all foes.
I was also surprised that the Gadsden flag with the rattler was the Marine Corp's first logo. I'll have to ask Tony (my husband) if he knew about it. Semper Fi.
I prefer the American Bald Eagle as a symbol; eagles kill snakes, and they are more majestic. I see them gliding over the house and ponds sometimes. What a beautiful sight! Even if they do carry off my ducks.
I think the Stars and Stipes is just fine as a flag---"broad stipes and bright stars",---- "through the perilous night" of our history, the symbol our fighting men, keepers of our freedom, have carried for more than 200 years.
Em, Why didn’t I use one of the symbols you referenced? I love the American flag and I love the bald eagle. But America is bigger than that. It’s bigger than these symbols, bigger than the White House, Capitol Hill, Congress and the President. America is about the people. The Gadsden Flag represents the people standing up to oppression and that’s why I used it as a symbol.
Government is oppressive. That is the nature of government. Every time Congress meets, we lose a bit more liberty. Our Founding Fathers said that, not me. NEVER in human history has expansion of government advanced the human condition. Never! All governments, even the American government, have the potential to become oppressive. And Jefferson said it is our duty as humans to “throw off such government”.
I’m not advocating government overthrow, but I am advocating the outcry that we have seen this past week. I swore an oath when I joined the military, and even though I have since separated from active duty, that oath still holds. It is an oath to the US Constitution, not the government, not the President, not Congress. The Constitution represents the people, and protects the people, and that is where my loyalties lie.
I love America, which is why I must defend it from its government whenever the need arises. That is the act of a true patriot.
Oppressive government must always be confronted, even when and especially if that government is our own.
“We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.”
While I obviously approve, I'm wondering why ideas and symbols used by the Ron Paul campaign are being used by the Republican Party now rather than being supported when he was actually running.
Robert, perhaps Paul was on to something. It seems he had some crystal ball and was able to foreshadow current events during the campaign. Then again, his bid for President was basically over by the time Bush implemented the first bailout or I would have given him more consideration. Maybe he can be part of the founding of a third party.
My prediction is that Gingrich will tap into this and start his own party, with the help of moderate Dems, fiscal conservatives and Libertarians. It could be a big move. If you consider that 25% of the country are far Left, 25% are far right, that leaves 50% in the middle who would potentially be open to throwing out the two ruling parties.
I doubt that will happen for several reason. Firsty, Paul would not lower himself to being part of a party whose leader is Newt Gingrich. And with all due respect, it's a bit condescending to take the guy who started the movement and say he could still be "a part" of it.
Secondly, Ron Paul and his supporters are not going to settle for a party which supports the foreign policy of Gingrich, and I doubt he holds the same position as we do about the elimination of the Federal Reserve, NSA, and CIA.
I guess it's pretty unreasonable for Ron Paul fans like myself to say all or nothing, but we have the luxury of doing so because we don't expect to win, we just follow our beliefs.
I think the point is irrelevant, as the political system we have doesn't allow third parties to garner votes. It's kind of designed not to, unintentionally probably, but that's the way it turned out.
I was going to comment more on that Gadsden flag and my worries about how it is being used by a young person here on this island, but first I must comment on what you said: "Government is oppressive. That is the nature of government. Every time Congress meets, we lose a bit more liberty. Our Founding Fathers said that, not me. NEVER in human history has expansion of government advanced the human condition. Never!"
Never? If anyone knows how oppressive government can be, it is I, or rather the Native Americans I descend from. There we were in 1598, us Piros, and Tewas in our pueblos in what is now New Mexico, and across the desert come these hairy men on giant deer with shiny pots on their heads. They brought the government of the Spanish crown with them, that is what they said. They were claiming us as subjects. They took away our fetishes, our tribal drums, our language and baptized us under new foreign sounding names and gave our souls to a Jesus from far, far away. Oppressive? Oppression? You bet.
After a few hundred years, the Spaniards left, and the Mexican goernment took over in 1821, then in 1852 more hairy men wearing blue uniforms claimed us for a President far, far away in Washington, DC. OK, now we have what we have, and by God no one has taken us away from the President, and I hope to God no one ever does. I don't feel opressed. I am grateful. Isn't it better to be civilized instead of living like stone-age people like we once did, and how some Arabs live? We are the people now, the American people, we always were.
OK, now to my worry about our youth in general, and more specific about one poor soul on this island. Someone made the statement that our returning soldiers are being radicalized by the far right. Well, that is hog-wash, or is it? Many of our youth are radicalized by failing schools and inattentive ignorant parents, in my opinion.
Our county commissioners were having a public meeting about some land they wanted to turn into a park. They wanted to do a land-swap to do so. On this land sits the local Rifle and Revolver club. The club wants in writing a statement from the county attorney that the club could stay on.
One of the people expressing their concerns about the gun club was a young man who said he was concerned because his "group [Kitsap County Militia] uses the club to protect the county with a lot of things, including its arms".
People were alarmed at his appearance and statements. One comment later on the local blog was: "Is that guy for real? What turnip truck did he ride into town on? He can't even wear a uniform properly. How does he get away with calling himself a lieutenant colonel? More likely he has never served a day in his life in the military. Of course, more than likely they wouldn't take him. I can't believe someone who is in or was in the army, Marine Corp or National Guard hasn't taken him out to the barn and squared him away. Right wing no, loose nut is more like it".
I was alarmed and started researching this young fellow's "group", etc. I found he has a website and a page on MySpace. It all made me shudder. The background on the website is that Gadsden flag and the music is blaring "Plastic Dashboard Jesus".
On his website he has a photo of an alien creature stomping George W. Bush's head in the gutter in front of the White House. The text says "Death to the North American Union". The photo of his girlfriend shows her in a bra and low cut jeans in the shooting range holding an AK-47.
He states that if the government or anybody else tries to hurt his girlfriend, he will beat the **** out of them.
He says that as part of his group he "gets to do the duty of saving the CONSTITUTION and the BILL OF RIGHTS", that his best friend saved him from the military, that his militia has better duties and is better trained than the National Guard, that they talk about MOLON LABE, that 9-11 was an inside job, that he fears New World Order, One World Government, that FEMA camps are prisons, that he has lots of "tools" and the government can't have them or his girlfriend.
On his profile he lists himself as a "college grad" but I found that on his website he states that he attended the local community college "from 2008-2008", and that his "other degree is a GED". Apparently he was a high-school drop-out and he flunked college and the local Navy National Guard wouldn't take him. I doubt that any recruiter would take him, so he has it in for the military and the government.
I am afraid I will hear some day that this kid (he is only 19, only 5'6" tall and his English is abominable) has walked into the Armory or school, etc. and strafed the place with his AK-47.
I don't need this kid to protect me. I live on this island where we have the Puget Sound Naval Yard, the Bangor Submarine Base, and Ft. Lewis is only a few miles south and the Whidbey Island Air Base is nearby also to the North.
Everything and everyone has failed this kid. It is a tragedy, another bomb about to go off. Sure, some of our military from Ft. Lewis have been breaking into homes, getting into fights in clubs, bringing girls to the barracks and drugging them (one 14 year old girl died in the barracks of a drug overdose), and a Marine where Obama was going to speak had a plot to assassinate him in his locker. But those are the exceptions and people don't have to panic and say our fighting men are being radicalized--some poor things go in traumatized by life and come out worse.
I worry about the use of that Gadsden flag. There is a militia group in Texas that calls itself "Texans for a Future Republic". They have that flag too. What future republic? We ARE a republic, of 50 states; we just need to control our congress, government agencies and big business, big ag, big pharm, so the little guy can give his kid a good education and a future life. Parents need to grow up and be responsible. Obama keeps saying that. He benefited from a family who cared enough to keep him on the straight and narrow.
Um, what? It's an 18th century flag, not a terrorist symbol.
For the record, my mother, a 45-year-old mother of four, happily married, living in small town Maine has that flag too. Pretty sure she's not loony or anything...
Robert-- Geez Loooeeeez, I am talking about a paranoid guy here, and you think I'm paranoid? I know the history of the Gadsden flag, and I didn't say it was a terrorist symbol, but it is 18th century. I'm not paranoid about the flag, but what it has come to mean to some people who don't have a good hold on reality and think we need militias. We have the State and National guards, police with swat teams, private security, etc. We don't need rag-tag militias to get in their way. Why don't these Rambo-wanna-bees sign up or re-up and go to Afghanistan where they would do some good?
Of course your Mom isn't loony for having that flag, I just wonder why people use it as a badge or challenge nowadays. No one is going to take your Mom's children or anything else she has, etc. I think in her part of the country, Yankee country, where the Union began, it is a common thing to display?
My husband, my father-in-law, my uncles, my male cousins, etc. fought for the Stars and Stripes, for the Republic for which it stands, in WWII, Korea, Vietnam. This is the 21st century, and our current flag doesn't seem good enough for SOME paranoid people who don't count their blessings, appreciate what we have, and are just using other symbols like chips on their shoulders.
The kid here who displays that Gadsden flag on his website IS paranoid. Why is he afraid that the GOVERNMENT is going to take his GIRLFRIEND away? Why is he against the military? The government isn't going to take anyone's guns away (they are all too anxious to slap a weapon in your hands and send you to Afghanistan---unless they see you for a psycho), but no one here needs an AK-47. That is overkill to me.
In the hands of this kid, that AK-47 is dangerous to our community. Kids like him with low self-esteem can snap. We are not to the point here where we have to have shootouts on our suburban streets with assault weapons. This peaceful, clean little island is not Afghanistan.
8 comments:
John,
I was curious about that flag you pictured, and I found this interesting article:
http://www.foundingfathers.info/stories/gadsden.html
I prefer Benjamin Franklin's "Join or Die" flag. We must stay united against all foes.
I was also surprised that the Gadsden flag with the rattler was the Marine Corp's first logo. I'll have to ask Tony (my husband) if he knew about it. Semper Fi.
I prefer the American Bald Eagle as a symbol; eagles kill snakes, and they are more majestic. I see them gliding over the house and ponds sometimes. What a beautiful sight! Even if they do carry off my ducks.
I think the Stars and Stipes is just fine as a flag---"broad stipes and bright stars",---- "through the perilous night" of our history, the symbol our fighting men, keepers of our freedom, have carried for more than 200 years.
God bless America!
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
Em,
Why didn’t I use one of the symbols you referenced? I love the American flag and I love the bald eagle. But America is bigger than that. It’s bigger than these symbols, bigger than the White House, Capitol Hill, Congress and the President. America is about the people. The Gadsden Flag represents the people standing up to oppression and that’s why I used it as a symbol.
Government is oppressive. That is the nature of government. Every time Congress meets, we lose a bit more liberty. Our Founding Fathers said that, not me. NEVER in human history has expansion of government advanced the human condition. Never! All governments, even the American government, have the potential to become oppressive. And Jefferson said it is our duty as humans to “throw off such government”.
I’m not advocating government overthrow, but I am advocating the outcry that we have seen this past week. I swore an oath when I joined the military, and even though I have since separated from active duty, that oath still holds. It is an oath to the US Constitution, not the government, not the President, not Congress. The Constitution represents the people, and protects the people, and that is where my loyalties lie.
I love America, which is why I must defend it from its government whenever the need arises. That is the act of a true patriot.
Oppressive government must always be confronted, even when and especially if that government is our own.
“We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.”
While I obviously approve, I'm wondering why ideas and symbols used by the Ron Paul campaign are being used by the Republican Party now rather than being supported when he was actually running.
Robert, perhaps Paul was on to something. It seems he had some crystal ball and was able to foreshadow current events during the campaign. Then again, his bid for President was basically over by the time Bush implemented the first bailout or I would have given him more consideration. Maybe he can be part of the founding of a third party.
My prediction is that Gingrich will tap into this and start his own party, with the help of moderate Dems, fiscal conservatives and Libertarians. It could be a big move. If you consider that 25% of the country are far Left, 25% are far right, that leaves 50% in the middle who would potentially be open to throwing out the two ruling parties.
Maybe Paul can be a part of it.
I doubt that will happen for several reason. Firsty, Paul would not lower himself to being part of a party whose leader is Newt Gingrich. And with all due respect, it's a bit condescending to take the guy who started the movement and say he could still be "a part" of it.
Secondly, Ron Paul and his supporters are not going to settle for a party which supports the foreign policy of Gingrich, and I doubt he holds the same position as we do about the elimination of the Federal Reserve, NSA, and CIA.
I guess it's pretty unreasonable for Ron Paul fans like myself to say all or nothing, but we have the luxury of doing so because we don't expect to win, we just follow our beliefs.
I think the point is irrelevant, as the political system we have doesn't allow third parties to garner votes. It's kind of designed not to, unintentionally probably, but that's the way it turned out.
John,
I was going to comment more on that Gadsden flag and my worries about how it is being used by a young person here on this island, but first I must comment on what you said: "Government is oppressive. That is the nature of government. Every time Congress meets, we lose a bit more liberty. Our Founding Fathers said that, not me. NEVER in human history has expansion of government advanced the human condition. Never!"
Never? If anyone knows how oppressive government can be, it is I, or rather the Native Americans I descend from. There we were in 1598, us Piros, and Tewas in our pueblos in what is now New Mexico, and across the desert come these hairy men on giant deer with shiny pots on their heads. They brought the government of the Spanish crown with them, that is what they said. They were claiming us as subjects. They took away our fetishes, our tribal drums, our language and baptized us under new foreign sounding names and gave our souls to a Jesus from far, far away. Oppressive? Oppression? You bet.
After a few hundred years, the Spaniards left, and the Mexican goernment took over in 1821, then in 1852 more hairy men wearing blue uniforms claimed us for a President far, far away in Washington, DC. OK, now we have what we have, and by God no one has taken us away from the President, and I hope to God no one ever does. I don't feel opressed. I am grateful. Isn't it better to be civilized instead of living like stone-age people like we once did, and how some Arabs live? We are the people now, the American people, we always were.
OK, now to my worry about our youth in general, and more specific about one poor soul on this island. Someone made the statement that our returning soldiers are being radicalized by the far right. Well, that is hog-wash, or is it? Many of our youth are radicalized by failing schools and inattentive ignorant parents, in my opinion.
Our county commissioners were having a public meeting about some land they wanted to turn into a park. They wanted to do a land-swap to do so. On this land sits the local Rifle and Revolver club. The club wants in writing a statement from the county attorney that the club could stay on.
One of the people expressing their concerns about the gun club was a young man who said he was concerned because his "group [Kitsap County Militia] uses the club to protect the county with a lot of things, including its arms".
People were alarmed at his appearance and statements. One comment later on the local blog was: "Is that guy for real? What turnip truck did he ride into town on? He can't even wear a uniform properly. How does he get away with calling himself a lieutenant colonel? More likely he has never served a day in his life in the military. Of course, more than likely they wouldn't take him. I can't believe someone who is in or was in the army, Marine Corp or National Guard hasn't taken him out to the barn and squared him away. Right wing no, loose nut is more like it".
I was alarmed and started researching this young fellow's "group", etc. I found he has a website and a page on MySpace. It all made me shudder. The background on the website is that Gadsden flag and the music is blaring "Plastic Dashboard Jesus".
On his website he has a photo of an alien creature stomping George W. Bush's head in the gutter in front of the White House. The text says "Death to the North American Union". The photo of his girlfriend shows her in a bra and low cut jeans in the shooting range holding an AK-47.
He states that if the government or anybody else tries to hurt his girlfriend, he will beat the **** out of them.
He says that as part of his group he "gets to do the duty of saving the CONSTITUTION and the BILL OF RIGHTS", that his best friend saved him from the military, that his militia has better duties and is better trained than the National Guard, that they talk about MOLON LABE, that
9-11 was an inside job, that he fears New World Order, One World Government, that FEMA camps are prisons, that he has lots of "tools" and the government can't have them or his girlfriend.
On his profile he lists himself as a "college grad" but I found that on his website he states that he attended the local community college "from 2008-2008", and that his "other degree is a GED". Apparently he was a high-school drop-out and he flunked college and the local Navy National Guard wouldn't take him. I doubt that any recruiter would take him, so he has it in for the military and the government.
I am afraid I will hear some day that this kid (he is only 19, only 5'6" tall and his English is abominable) has walked into the Armory or school, etc. and strafed the place with his AK-47.
I don't need this kid to protect me. I live on this island where we have the Puget Sound Naval Yard, the Bangor Submarine Base, and Ft. Lewis is only a few miles south and the Whidbey Island Air Base is nearby also to the North.
Everything and everyone has failed this kid. It is a tragedy, another bomb about to go off. Sure, some of our military from Ft. Lewis have been breaking into homes, getting into fights in clubs, bringing girls to the barracks and drugging them (one 14 year old girl died in the barracks of a drug overdose), and a Marine where Obama was going to speak had a plot to assassinate him in his locker. But those are the exceptions and people don't have to panic and say our fighting men are being radicalized--some poor things go in traumatized by life and come out worse.
I worry about the use of that Gadsden flag. There is a militia group in Texas that calls itself "Texans for a Future Republic". They have that flag too. What future republic? We ARE a republic, of 50 states; we just need to control our congress, government agencies and big business, big ag, big pharm, so the little guy can give his kid a good education and a future life. Parents need to grow up and be responsible. Obama keeps saying that. He benefited from a family who cared enough to keep him on the straight and narrow.
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
Um, what? It's an 18th century flag, not a terrorist symbol.
For the record, my mother, a 45-year-old mother of four, happily married, living in small town Maine has that flag too. Pretty sure she's not loony or anything...
Aren't you being a bit paranoid?
Robert-- Geez Loooeeeez, I am talking about a paranoid guy here, and you think I'm paranoid? I know the history of the Gadsden flag, and I didn't say it was a terrorist symbol, but it is
18th century. I'm not paranoid about the flag, but what it has come to mean to some people who don't have a good hold on reality and think we need militias. We have the State and National guards, police with swat teams, private security, etc. We don't need rag-tag militias to get in their way. Why don't these Rambo-wanna-bees sign up or re-up and go to Afghanistan where they would do some good?
Of course your Mom isn't loony for having that flag, I just wonder why people use it as a badge or challenge nowadays. No one is going to take your Mom's children or anything else she has, etc. I think in her part of the country, Yankee country, where the Union began, it is a common thing to display?
My husband, my father-in-law, my uncles, my male cousins, etc. fought for the Stars and Stripes, for the Republic for which it stands, in WWII, Korea, Vietnam.
This is the 21st century, and our current flag doesn't seem good enough for SOME paranoid people who don't count their blessings, appreciate what we have, and are just using other symbols like chips on their shoulders.
The kid here who displays that Gadsden flag on his website IS paranoid. Why is he afraid that the GOVERNMENT is going to take his GIRLFRIEND away? Why is he against the military? The government isn't going to take anyone's guns away (they are all too anxious to slap a weapon in your hands and send you to Afghanistan---unless they see you for a psycho), but no one here needs an AK-47. That is overkill to me.
In the hands of this kid, that AK-47 is dangerous to our community. Kids like him with low self-esteem can snap. We are not to the point here where we have to have shootouts on our suburban streets with assault weapons. This peaceful, clean little island is not Afghanistan.
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
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